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 Post subject: Budget Salvation
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:02 am
Posts: 39
Location: Toronto
Budget Salvation

or how to exact revenge on the high priest
who mounted you when you had
your eyes shut, waiting for God -

No. Don’t give up on the Dream:
you are draped in saffron vestment,
she, very nearly naked, but

for the Kelsi Dagger Moxie,
studded lace-up booties
you browsed at work; with those

she will pound your conch
in mock repentance,
profound lamentation

before tearing down
your vestment and blooding your rump
with a chain of blades, in ritual flagellation.

Candles flicker to an old note you found
randomly changing radio stations.
Some how you know it’s ustad
Bismilla’s Yaman Kalyan;

you can sense the bitter
after taste of filtered coffee,
you can even smell the incense.


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 Post subject: Re: Budget Salvation
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:22 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:49 pm
Posts: 387
Location: Mojave Desert
Sachi---

I think this is one of your best poems that i have seen lately---but not an easy subject, not an easy read.

the literal sense of the poem strains this reader.

but the bitter ridicule, dripping sarcasm and scorn are successfully presented.

a priest, one of those we have seen in the headlines, now on the receiving end of some professional discipline that he has purchased.

Kelsi Dagger Moxie,


i must be getting old, i didn't know these shoes might be working tools for certain folks.

or how to exact revenge on the high priest
who mounted you when you had
your eyes shut, waiting for God -b]

from the start, the poem makes clear it intends to take no prisoners. the pronoun you, is that a wise choice? certainly moves the action close to the reader, but if the reader is not the you, as more than 95 percent will not be, do i risk a failed connection?

...[b]eyes shut. waiting for God.


the priest is quickly and thoroughly dispatched:



No. Don’t give up on the Dream:
you are draped in saffron vestment,
she, very nearly naked, but



i stopped here, wondering whose dream. apparently, the poem takes us into the professional session the priest has ordered with a service worker.

can you be thinking back? to the eyes wide shut movie? the ceremonial robes, saffron i think.


from flagellation we jump cut to the close. i was very nearly left behind.
bismilla's yaman Kalyan. i think of little horns, like the big ones in s africa at the world cup with the same shrill sound..you know i like a wide range of music and it is possible, very possible, i only heard them at their worst---so i wasn't sure if this was a lampoon reference or the poem being serious.


Candles flicker to an old note you found
randomly changing radio stations.
Some how you know it’s ustad
Bismilla’s Yaman Kalyan;




does the candle flicker like music from a radio station? at any rate, though i wasn't completely following the progression of the narrative, i very much liked the close:


you can sense the bitter
after taste of filtered coffee,
you can even smell the incense.



do you know the lord byron quote:


Quote:
Let us have Wine and Women,
Mirth and Laughter
Sermons and soda-water
the day after.




very nice job. would you want to help the reader with added info about the music, about the found old note?



hope you are well, still in canada?

bernie


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 Post subject: Re: Budget Salvation
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:20 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:15 pm
Posts: 175
Sachi,

Interesting read. "waiting for God" gave me a sensation of futility, since the general idea is that there is no waiting when there is omnipresence--I like this. I do not know what "the Dream" with capital D is, but in the context of boots as tools of hazard, I am going towards D/S or S/M and thinking of the big 'O.' Saffron being a sign of wisdom, of discernment, I imagine you refer to it as protection. I am not sure of the "browsed at work" phrase--it takes me to the office, meaning desks and file cabinets, away from where I would rather stay within the poem--how about watched the boots at work if you really want to see heels kicking on someone--not I, not really, but hey...I may be convinced...

I am afraid I do not know how to read "conch" except as a female organ, and this confuses me.. It is a tough-sounding word that competes with the boots.. "mock repentance and profound lamentation" are overdramatized as language expression, especially when used together--I would leave out "profound lamentation." So, there is role playing, and she mocks repentance to the priest whom she indulges.. I am not guessing a crime, but a willing duet, interesting to think of a saffron robed priest with a lacey naked woman in spiked boots.. It is actually comical, as are some porn flicks.. Am I lacking sensitivity? Is someone a villain and someone a victim? There is, after all, a warning.. hmmm... And the narrator is peeking? He/she has been there?

The following, "ritual flagellation" --regular costumer? I do not know why the word "ritual" makes me think of it this way--I would think a ritual is planned, follows some rules.. To get somewhere, achieve something... the Dream?

before tearing down
your vestment and blooding your rump
with a chain of blades, in ritual flagellation.


Next stanza, why "Some how..."

The last stanza is very good. My question is who is the narrator and who is "you." In the last sentence, it feels a generalized "you" not as telling the "you" who is previously warned how the narrator felt as having experienced all of the above before, which, to me, is implied as the narrator warns...

Very engaging and provoking read. Imagination triggered.
I enjoyed it!

pen
Is "Budget Salvation" as in renting a movie? I smile.


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 Post subject: Re: Budget Salvation
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:37 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 1:57 am
Posts: 105
Hi Sachi,

Some suggestions through these passages:

No. Don’t give up on the Dream:
you are draped in saffron,
she, very nearly naked, save

for the Kelsi Dagger Moxie,
you browsed at work;
with these studded lace-up

booties she will pound
your conch in mock repentance,
profound lamentation

before tearing down
your vestment and flagellating your back
side with a chain of blades,

^^ or maybe -

side with a blade-chain



One word:

somehow

aftertaste


Sachi, please note: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4701

Thanks.


Best Regards,

Michael (MV)

 
 

 
 


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 Post subject: For Bernie
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:19 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:02 am
Posts: 39
Location: Toronto
Thanks Bernie,

for your close read and comments, generous to a fault, as always. To your questions: you is the you and it includes me; I am reading Heraclitus these days and sorry if that's taking over. Still in Canada. Yaman is one of the most popular raags in the Indian musical system, to listen to something similar to what the narrator thinks might have been playing in the dream, please select http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axnYrEZobD8. Thanks again. Sachi


Last edited by Sachi Nag on Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: For Penumbra
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:36 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:02 am
Posts: 39
Location: Toronto
Thanks Penumbra,

for your close reading, for rendering the piece. I appreciate your crit and comments, much of which I have on-boarded now and will be doing over the weeks, months and years, I think. I was less sure of conch myself and thought it introduced a visual layer to the piece, but perhaps all it did was to obfuscate, so I went for the alternative. Thanks.

Although I understand what you mean, I would like to retain 'browsed at work' because that connection is important, I think, to the piece; 'mock repentance and profound lamentation' is doubtlessly over dramatized; I would say intentional, because I wanted to pitch the piece in a delicate space between the real and the unreal.

I am interested in the rituality of self-flagellation as witnessed in many countries that practice the Shia-ite version of Islam. This piece owes some to that world view, that you can self flagellate to salvation, not different from other world views that suggest you can suffer and get salvation. I am not sure if that truly happens for all, sure it does for some.

The narrator is absent, only, you are there, like it or not. 'Somehow' is a great nit and I am grateful you raised, I was not so sure about the immediacy of connects between dreamed objects or experiences and how the mind connects them to the reality as we experience outside dreams...that was the reason it is somehow.; perhaps more certainty will help the piece for now. Thanks again. Sachi


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 Post subject: For Michael (MV)
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:47 am 
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Posts: 39
Location: Toronto
Thanks for the suggests and the crit; helps the piece a lot towards achieving connections; and clarity. Especially appreciate how you straightened, what appears as broken syntax in S3. I think it was masterful how you interchanged the lines; I was trying to get there but was not sure if the brand name recall for kdm would do it, let's see; missed that obvious plot. I noticed you suggested 'save' in S1 and I think you wanted to hush it down a bit; I need to be more ready for that shift. Also liked the suggests in S5, made things more clear, addressed a concern Penumbra had raised but cost this piece the connection to the ritualism I want to retain, but haven't found the way; I need to work more on that. So, work in progress. Thanks again.


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 Post subject: Re: Budget Salvation
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:18 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:15 pm
Posts: 175
Sachi!

I so enjoyed your replies! From what I have read of saints (the Catholic church, including the previous Pope, it seems) and self-flagellation to achieve spiritual heights, which, in turn, are supposed to atone for sins (cleanse) and get the faithful closer to achieve salvation, the same experience/sensation is registered in the physical sense that the brain releases its natural morphine. In short, raising the level of pain inflicted raises the amount of morphine the brain releases. The mind at worship not too different from the mind at play.

The correlation, the paradox, pain/pleasure is intriguing, whether it is focused in a carnal or a spiritual way. That the physical experience allows (or aids in) the spiritual result is of great interest to me (there is also tantra). So is the poetry of mystics (of various religions/beliefs) that at times refers to a deity and at times to a lover, yet there is no difference in context - the reader chooses to whom it is directed, if he does not know beforehand. The latter, a deviation on my part... It is too easy for me to slide off on tangents. I commend you for your ability to stay focused.

Fascinating subject!

pen


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 Post subject: Re: Budget Salvation
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 1:57 pm
Posts: 206
Hi Sachi

Good to read you again. An edgy and strong piece. Unnerving and disturbing in its details, the narrative crisply and expertly handled.

I am pleased to see that the poem has been chosen by MV to go to IBPC for this month. Excellent. The best of luck to you, Sach!

Chris

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Christopher T George
Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Editor, Loch Raven Review
http://www.lochravenreview.net
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com


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 Post subject: Re: Budget Salvation
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:45 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 10:48 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Cymru
Beating oneself is an over rated pastime, it may stimulate parts of the mind and achive some sort of release from guilt but it is transitory and the practice is additive. The Roman Catholics mangle parts of scripture that call for repentance and make it read penance. Penance is a phyiscal act intending to appease the anger of God for sin. The reformed take is that these works do nothing with out the heart being changed, the heart and will of man has to be changed from the inside out and man must turn from self seeking to inner repentance and faith in God, in particualr in christ. This is the true religion to know Christ and to follow him.

This practice of self denial and of public works of suffering is psuedo religion at work, it is done to satisfy the ego very often because it is done in public. Jesus Christ spoke of the Pharisees praying with heralds going before them with trumpets, making sure evryone knew that this guy had done for the church and so on, they fasted and painted their faces so everyone knew, they prayed on street corners so people could mark them as men of prayer and hence honour. Jesus told his disciples to do their good works in secret so that only God knew. Don't let your right hand know what you r left is doing , he said. Typical Hyperbole and very effective in getting a message over. In the early time of Christinity men would live in caves, naked, eat insects to stay alve denying themselves any material comfort in this world, it is all futile say the wisdom of Solomon, you only have one life so enjoy it. God has given us many good things to enjoy, then enjoy them because we never know our end.

The Reformation attempted to free men from superstition and blind following of practices not specified in the Scripture. men were to be rational, without superstition and giving honour to God in all things and in every way in the daily life. Self denial was to avoid excesses, smoking, drinking alchol, drugs, pleasure eating, in other words moderation in all things. Keep the body wholesome and the mind free from hatred and lust, this was the way. Flagellation has very little value in the spiritual life. When suffering came the Chriostian was to embrace it as had Christ, but Christian swere not to seek out suffering for the sake of it, that would be counter to the teachings of Christ. Thee are sufferings enough in this life without generating suffering. So the Christian rejects anything that is manipulated to achive a spiritual state, candles, images of God, supertition festivals where bone sof the saints at taken out in procession and venerated, nothing phusical was to be venerated, not even crosses the Puritans saw satan in very device of men. Worship was to be simple, orderly and focused on Chrsit Jesus. Ad that is why the reformed countires took off economically inn the 16th centruries , they were free from superstitious rites and practices and governed by a rule of law based on the bible, fair play and honesty in all thing was the rule...onkly the Imperialists didn't play to the rules, but there you are that is man.

Now to the poem...

draped in saffron vestment [grammar dictates a vestment or vestment garments]

Other than that I am sorry to say I did not get one line of it, not one word...sorry. Best I can do.

Ieuan


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