Dust Storm (revision 2 and couple more tweaks)

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Kenneth2816
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Joined: 01 Jun 2008, 09:17

Re: Dust Storm (revision 2)

#26 Post by Kenneth2816 » 05 Oct 2017, 23:32

Nice to watch the evolution of this Gracy.
Fine work.

Gracy321
Posts: 94
Joined: 19 Sep 2017, 09:10
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Re: Dust Storm (revision 2)

#27 Post by Gracy321 » 06 Oct 2017, 06:10

Bernie01 wrote:G---

...As you haven't actually given any specific critiques to my poem


lordie, i suggested you remove 15 lines. did you possibly miss that? of course not.

you have chosen to ignore my heartfelt advice...LOL....well, you are a smart cookie and very able poet.

my advice, make it personal.

politics, geo-politics et. all swell but often such writing becomes mere polemic, less a poem.

you have word excesses here, over the top phrasing:


Mother The Earth is thirsty, ochre,
prematurely wrinkled;..........................i go about this far....

an old hag, her countenance
tense as the skin of a kultrún. *
She’s an earthen pyre,
her loins raped by forces
devouring her rich layer of fertility.


sincere, but almost silly at the worst end of the scale, maudlin at the higher end.

others i'm sure commented, i did not. i like your roaring romanticism, the great feeling you offer in your poem,


Over in our orchard,
shrouded trees lean on shed and ploughs.
Mother Earth is thirsty, ochre,
prematurely wrinkled;

....her tired skin is cracked and in the cracks
lie the dead, lie the dying... lies all hope.


the main character, "your man" can be shown walking the dusty fields...

plants bend with dust like old men bent with age,
under his trod the layer of dust cracks like ice.
Dust, dust, and no air to breath, men choke,
animals mew, low hopelessly in broken pens
or limp across shod grass dry as any sepulechur.


you get my drift. make it personal, give me taste, feel, texture and image...from that base, maybe, a reader can tolerate your sincere editorial, the polemic you most want the reader to absorb.



but i repeat. i enjoy and find pleasure in your vivid romanticism.

i'm not looking to convince you to change your poem, to write like me or anybody else, only to understand the POV of my shabby crit.


if settlers helped to ruin the ground, introduced cloven hoofed animals....let me see them for a line or two---

the men sweat through and half crazy
with work and loneliness on the long earth...
meaning no harm. My man, looking so much
like the open mining men,
the hydro-electric and nuclear projects men
battering Patagonia as he strives to protect her.

the animals eating the earth to desert,
meaning no harm.


bernie
Hi Bernie,
There's been some misunderstanding here. I answered your post dealing with Grapes of Wrath, The Good Earth, I think even the bible (tho' I didn't quite understand the relationship), but yes, I have also read most of the bible coz it was obligatory reading during part of my years at Univ., studying Philosophy, which includes two years of Theology getting to know half a dozen religions and/or so-called pagan "pantheons of gods".
In that post you didn't include critiques. At least, IMHO, you set forth examples of how to hook the reader in. Thank you.
I answered another of your highly useful critiques and did indeed pare down my poem following your suggestions. I did not, of course, cut out 15 lines, sorry there! LOL..
Out went the cloven hooves, alien herds and other stuff.
I'll view what you've added now and see how much more paring down I'm willing to do.
Tx again, Gracy

Gracy321
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Re: Dust Storm (revision 2)

#28 Post by Gracy321 » 06 Oct 2017, 06:17

Kenneth2816 wrote:Nice to watch the evolution of this Gracy.
Fine work.
Thank you, Ken. I'm trying to pare it down. Did quite a lot of that.
We'll see what I throw out next, or change completely.
I've no intention of re-writing the whole thing.
I like to move on and will be posting something totally different very soon.
Best, Gracy

FranktheFrank
Posts: 1983
Joined: 02 Mar 2016, 18:07
Location: Between the mountains and the sea

Re: Dust Storm (revision 2)

#29 Post by FranktheFrank » 07 Oct 2017, 16:45

It is much neater now Gracy, but you still hang on to some overly
dramatic passages. Mother earth is really old hat for me,
you repeat it twice in case we hadn't got it the first time.

I don't see earth and think of mother, who does,
maybe a peasant.
Earth’s womb has been ripped open, birthing grit, sorrow and death.

Why is the noonday sun, when at it's strongest, now subdued,
is it clouds or storm, or the dust please tell us why, we would like to know.

Lean on a shed and some ploughs?

Wrinkled earth does not do for me,
neither does raped.

I could go on, it's a bit over the top for a storm.

I see the personal in S3, very good, a name would be nice.

Why is the silence uncanny.

The end of the poem is at - tight to his heart.

Gracy321
Posts: 94
Joined: 19 Sep 2017, 09:10
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Re: Dust Storm (revision 2)

#30 Post by Gracy321 » 08 Oct 2017, 07:40

Hi Frank,
Mother Earth is used in my country. It has native origins. Pachamama. I'm leaving it as is, as well as the "over dramatisation" throughout.
It's about time some poets dramatised about the devastation of our planet. Plenty of books do.
Same as you, I write a lot to please myself. Whereas crits are always welcome,
all of them are impossible to implement.
I'm working on another poem now.
Tx all the same.
Gracy

FranktheFrank
Posts: 1983
Joined: 02 Mar 2016, 18:07
Location: Between the mountains and the sea

Re: Dust Storm (revision 2)

#31 Post by FranktheFrank » 08 Oct 2017, 14:57

Okay Gracy, I will ease off, why not use Pachamama,
seems a really interesting word
far better than Mother earth.

You do what you like with this poem Gracy
it is after all your poem.

Gracy321
Posts: 94
Joined: 19 Sep 2017, 09:10
Location: Argentina
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Re: Dust Storm (revision 2)

#32 Post by Gracy321 » 10 Oct 2017, 01:52

FranktheFrank wrote:Okay Gracy, I will ease off, why not use Pachamama,
seems a really interesting word
far better than Mother earth.

You do what you like with this poem Gracy
it is after all your poem.
Thank you, Frank, for your new suggestions. I would have to use "Ñuke Mapu", which is the name used by indigenous people in Patagonia. Pachamama is more northern, it's also used in other countries. Of popular usage, that's why it came to my mind first.
You may not like Mother Earth, but it goes way back to the Greek writer Hesiod in his Theology, but named Gaia, Gea, Ge, etc. Far too long to explain the various definitions and meanings.
Gaia is also used by James Lovelock, the British scientist who first wrote "The Ages of Gaia". His theory is that Earth is a living, auto-regulating organism. More recently, he published "Gaia's Revenge" or something similar. He must be quite old now.
It's interesting that a group of modern scientists think in a similar fashion to indigenous peoples. That the Earth is feminine as well as a giver of life. In the case of "Ñuke Mapu", she gives life and power through elements such as water, plants, trees, etc. For which there are some rituals used to thank her, or even to ask forgiveness for ill-treating her.
It would be great if western civilization had a similar appreciation of these gifts that Earth gives us.
Tx,
Gracy

Gracy321
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Re: Dust Storm (revision 2)

#33 Post by Gracy321 » 13 Oct 2017, 10:07

sanpiseth40 wrote:... there was also the Dust Bowl – drought and dust storms swept across several states in mid-west America. This resulted in crops being very poor in these areas ...ผลบอล
Hi there,
I don't think we've met before. I'm fairly new here.
And yes, I remember the Dust Bowl, that was a long time ago. I've always kept up with world news. I remember the book "Silent Spring', it was published way back when DDT was used. Nowadays pesticides and fertilizers are far more potent. Hardly anybody remains unaffected by these man made disasters.
Tx for chipping in.
Best, Gracy

FranktheFrank
Posts: 1983
Joined: 02 Mar 2016, 18:07
Location: Between the mountains and the sea

Re: Dust Storm (revision 2)

#34 Post by FranktheFrank » 13 Oct 2017, 13:58

To me, and full marks to you for the hard work you put into
this poem and the many critiques you have tried to accommodate.

Is it that nature has caused the dust conditions of that region, is it the cold dry air
coming down from the Chilean alps that drys out the land and unless fed by the canals
dug by the immigrants it would stay as it always was a dust bowl.

I don't get the anger thrown out in a generic blast about the rape of a land, when it has
always been like that in those steppes as you rightly call them. I travel through
North Wales at times and there are huge valleys left for over a hundred years
left with the detritus of slate quarrying, thousands and thousands of tons
massed up everywhere you look. Nature is moving back, pools, wildlife,
grasslands in parts, woods it looks different, but it is beautiful to me.

The same with the spoils from the coal mines, we have here reclaimed
thousands of square miles of coal tips, made them into vast barrows.
We are getting used to that. The ancient farmers of three thousand years
ago cut down the trees of every mountain here and instead we have glazier
rounded hills of grass, still beautiful, but maybe better with forests of
indigenous trees,but then sheep farmers would have no living. I think it
will always be a balance of what man wants and what was and can never
be the same again until the crows take over from man.

So I don't agree with the slant of the poem, but now you have condensed it,
it looks much neater it is and an easier read.

LindaLinda
Posts: 68
Joined: 08 Oct 2017, 05:13

Re: Dust Storm (revision 2)

#35 Post by LindaLinda » 13 Oct 2017, 20:10

[Hi gracy Im new here too. I see that a lot of time has been put into this piece, I'll give it a go take what you like and leave the rest
quote="Gracy321"]Revision 2

Dust Storm

My man is pitched through the door.....................Blasts from winds pitched my man through the door
by blasts from the steppes.
Out there, scrub and cactus land,
Mother Earth’s womb has been ripped open,............Mother's womb has been ripped open
birthing grit, sorrow and death.
Noonday sun has relinquished power.
Gloom is ushered in by a maelstrom of dust.................gloom, ushered in........
Tumbleweed scratches at windows,.............................omit AT
like spidery skeletons at the gale's mercy. ...............spidery skeletons seems over the top
............................................................Tumbleweed scratches windows at the gales mercy
Over in our orchard, ................................................over the orchard
shrouded trees lean on shed and ploughs.
Mother Earth is thirsty, ochre,
prematurely wrinkled;...............................Omit........ saying the same thing as an old hag
an old hag, her countenance
tense as the skin of a kultrún. *
She’s an earthen pyre,
her loins raped by forces
devouring her rich layer of fertility.........................devouring her fertility
But the hag’s eyes are tearless,
they’ve not rained a drop in eons,
her tired skin is cracked and in the cracks....her skin is cracked, lie the dead, lie the dying
lie the dead, lie the dying... lies all hope'''''''''''''''''''The less wordage the more powerful, IMHO

My man’s face is seared with dust,
eyelids heavy with gray desperation.
Sweat has succumbed to an earthy mask,
dry runnels on his cheeks.
Nobody gains over December’s wind.
He drops his clothes in a sad heap,.................he drops his clothes in a heap...... a heap isn't sad
flings open his arms to my cool body,..................presses me tightly to his warm body
presses me tight to his heart...........

Tomorrow, in uncanny silence,
a sickle moon will scythe Patagonian skies,
overlooking centennial shadows.........omit..... use remaining lines, sounds so much stronger
cast in stone, sword and catastrophe......i would end in ...cast in stone...seems a perfect ending ........................................................the catastrophe is implied with your other lines here

just some suggestions to tighten, hopefully without taking from your beautiful images and descriptions
Linda
...................................................
* Kultrún = Concave drum with ritual mandala. Used by Mapuche, i.e., Earth People. Indigenous communities in Argentine Patagonia, who make musical instruments from natural sources.

Original

Dust Storm

The man is pitched through the door
by blasts from the steppes.
Out there, scrub and cactus land,
Earth’s womb has been ripped open,
birthing grit, sorrow and death.
Noonday sun has relinquished power
over all things and all beings.
Gloom ushered in by a maelstrom of dust.
Tumbleweed scratches at windows,
like spidery skeletons seeking shelter
from the teeth of the wind.

Over in the orchard, clothed in pale shrouds,
gashed trees lean on shed and plough.
Earth’s face is thirsty, ochre,
prematurely wrinkled and dry,
an old hag, her yellow innards
tense as the skin of a kultrún. *
Trampled on for centuries
by cloven hooves of alien herds,
she’s powder, an earthen pyre,
her genitals raped by forces
devouring her rich layer of fertility.
But the hag’s eyes are tearless,
they’ve not rained a drop in eons,
her tired skin is cracked and in the cracks
lie the dead, lie the dying... lies all hope.

The man’s face is seared with dust,
eyelids heavy with gray desperation.
Sweat has succumbed to an earthy mask,
dry runnels on his cheeks,
the scarred hole of a mouth.
No man ever gained over December’s wind.
He’ll drop his clothes to the floor in a sad heap,
fling open his arms to my cool body,
press me tight to his heart.

Tomorrow, in silence uncanny,
a sickle moon will knife Patagonian skies,
overlooking centennial shadows
cast in stone, sword and catastrophe.

* Kultrún = Concave drum with painted mandala. Used by Mapuche, i.e., Earth People. Indigenous people dwelling in Argentine Patagonia, who make musical instruments from natural sources. The cloven hooves belong to sheep introduced by European settlers. The autoctonous guanaco has padded soles that don't harm the terrain. Etc.[/quote]

SivaVelliangiri
Posts: 140
Joined: 09 Jul 2017, 06:34

Re: Dust Storm (revision 2)

#36 Post by SivaVelliangiri » 13 Oct 2017, 23:23

Gracy
I was reminded of this lecture.I listened to it yet again after reading your poem several times.Please listen to it when you are travelling to go shopping .

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j ... wt2XuH5P5s

Gracy321
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Joined: 19 Sep 2017, 09:10
Location: Argentina
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Re: Dust Storm (revision 2)

#37 Post by Gracy321 » 18 Oct 2017, 10:12

SivaVelliangiri wrote:Gracy
I was reminded of this lecture.I listened to it yet again after reading your poem several times.Please listen to it when you are travelling to go shopping .

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j ... wt2XuH5P5s
Thank you so much for the link, Siva. I did indeed listen to it. Amazing that dust should be considered the elemental "stuff" that everything arises from. Even life. I found the lecture fascinating. I knew quite a lot about Indian traditions, but had never heard about the importance of dust.

I'm very grateful to you, because it made think more about my poem (among other things), and it's true that Nature has a way of renewing life by provoking things such as dust storms. Where I live, we sometimes get covered in ashes from Chilean volcanoes. That's terrible for a couple of years, but after that the land becomes more fertile than ever before. Destruction followed by new beginnings.
Best, Gracy

Gracy321
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Re: Dust Storm (revision 2 and couple more tweaks)

#38 Post by Gracy321 » 18 Oct 2017, 10:26

Hi Linda,
Thanks so much for your detailed suggestions. I've used some of them, did the tweaking a few minutes ago.
I'm glad you like my poem despite so many more tweaks that could be made.
I'll give the rest a thought.
Tx a lot, Gracy

Gracy321
Posts: 94
Joined: 19 Sep 2017, 09:10
Location: Argentina
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Re: Dust Storm (revision 2)

#39 Post by Gracy321 » 18 Oct 2017, 10:51

Hi Frank,
Don't know what you mean by trolls in this case. Siva gave a highly interesting link, hope you weren't referring to that. No trolls around here.
Now about your critique, Frank. I can't possibly please everybody and if you think only peasants think of Earth as a "mother", well, so be it.

I like to focus on my poem, so I won't answer all the issues you've raised, save to say that there are no Indians and no cowboys anywhere in Argentina. We have a fairly large number of indigenous communities, each with their own names. Some of which are fine horsemen, often riding barebacked animals. So did I when I was younger.
One could say that we have "gauchos" or "criollos", although both terms are becoming old-fashioned, except for festive occasions, when their skills are shown off to the crowds.
The Welsh community is in one province of Patagonia (Chubut). Their customs are well-established and they serve delicious teas in a couple of towns nearby. Delightful garments are produced with local yarns, as well as embroidered mats, tablecloths, etc. Tourists visit these towns. Princess Diana flew down when she visited Argentina.
Patagonia has many beautiful towns, where tourists descend regularly. Many are ski-resorts, but the lakes and mountains are so fantastic, that all sorts of sports can be enjoyed.
Must leave off now, Frank.
Best, Gracy



FranktheFrank wrote:Best not to feed the trolls Gracy. :)

To me, and full marks to you for the hard work you put into
this poem and the many critiques you have tried to accommodate.

To me opening a mine, or digging a 10 square mile of quarry in a beautiful
landscape is progress, people get jobs, feed their children etc. etc. Cutting
down a fragile rain forest is something different, it is detrimental to our planet.
It would help if we were told what in particular is the rape of mother earth [sic],
who has raped and how. I see Patagonia as a large parcel of land ten times bigger
than my own country and sparcely inhabited save for the Welsh/Spanish/part Indian
cowboys and a variety of strange animals we don't see anywhere else other than zoos.

Is it that nature has caused the dust conditions of that region, is it the cold dry air
coming down from the Chilean alps that drys out the land and unless fed by the canals
dug by the immigrants it would stay as it always was a dust bowl.

I don't get the anger thrown out in a generic blast about the rape of a land, when it has
always been like that in those steppes as you rightly call them. I travel through
North Wales at times and there are huge valleys left for over a hundred years
left with the detritus of slate quarrying, thousands and thousands of tons
massed up everywhere you look. Nature is moving back, pools, wildlife,
grasslands in parts, woods it looks different, but it is beautiful to me.

The same with the spoils from the coal mines, we have here reclaimed
thousands of square miles of coal tips, made them into vast barrows.
We are getting used to that. The ancient farmers of three thousand years
ago cut down the trees of every mountain here and instead we have glazier
rounded hills of grass, still beautiful, but maybe better with forests of
indigenous trees,but then sheep farmers would have no living. I think it
will always be a balance of what man wants and what was and can never
be the same again until the crows take over from man.

So I don't agree with the slant of the poem, but now you have condensed it,
it looks much neater it is and an easier read.

FranktheFrank
Posts: 1983
Joined: 02 Mar 2016, 18:07
Location: Between the mountains and the sea

Re: Dust Storm (revision 2 and couple more tweaks)

#40 Post by FranktheFrank » 19 Oct 2017, 01:51

The troll topic, you answered.

After you answered the troll I made my remark.

The troll has now been removed by an admin.

The troll remark that I made, in poor humour I admit, was made
by me a full 10 hours before Siva sent you that interesting link.

I hope this post has clarified the situation to your satisfaction.

I will be willing to answer any questions on this topic,
I will refrain from making any sort of remark about trolls in the future
in the hope other respected members of this forum are not
brought into it.

I wish you every success in your poetry.

best wishes

Frank

capricorn
Posts: 382
Joined: 21 Sep 2017, 23:23

Re: Dust Storm (revision 2 and couple more tweaks)

#41 Post by capricorn » 26 Oct 2017, 01:24

Hi Gracy,

I've returned to this after some time. I really like the trimming back you have made in revision. I only have one very small suggestion here

Over in our orchard,
shrouded trees lean on shed and ploughs.
Mother Earth is thirsty, ochre,
an old hag, her countenance
tense as the skin of a kultrún.


I feel over is not needed (for conciseness)

In our orchard, shrouded trees
lean on shed and ploughs.
Mother Earth is thirsty, ochre,
an old hag, her countenance
tense as the skin of a kultrún.


Just a thought, but no big deal. You've made great changes.

Eira

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