All Things Are Crooked (version 2, with small cuts)

[CalebMurdock]

All Things Are Crooked (version 2)

[BobBradshaw]

I like the close. It’s fab.

I know the intent is to create a believable, casual voice but don’t use filler. For example”Every so often”. Can’t this be said with one word? Why do we need to know that this scene took place in the “early” nineteen eighties? I suggest going through the poem and looking for places to trim. These 2 lines are candidates to be cut a bit:

were a fascinating fact everyone ought to know
(not least of which the oblivious deformed).

I like the N’s voice. Pare his story down, and you’ll have a good poem to submit somewhere.

[CalebMurdock]

That's interesting advice, but my first reaction isn't positive. I like the two lines you want me to cut. I am trying for a conversational rhythm in this poem, and that often requires more words rather than less. "Every so often" sounds conversational, which, say, "periodically" wouldn't. As for the 1980s, I think that's just an interesting fact. If I don't write that, then I have to use another multi-word phrase, like "early in my work career" or "many decades ago".

However, I asked for feedback, and you gave it to me, and I appreciate it. I'll think about rewording those portions of the poem, but I may end up leaving them.

Thank you!

[BobBradshaw]

I objected to the word “early”, not to the nineteen eighties reference. I didn’t ask for those 2 lines you cited to be removed, but to be cut “a bit”.

I am not going to debate your points, but I apologize if I was insensitive in my suggestions. I will tone them down in the future. You’re a good writer, and I don’t want to lose you here at our forum.

[CalebMurdock]

Bob, if I was being a little defensive, I apologize. And I also apologize if I misunderstood what you said.

You said nothing wrong. You were NOT insensitive in any way, and you don't need to tone anything down. You gave me your honest opinion, and I appreciate it. I hope you will always do that in the future.

I'm going to consider everything you said, and possibly make changes. Once again, thank you for your feedback.

Oh, let me add that "early" was put in the first line to flesh out the rough meter.

[CalebMurdock]

Bob, it turns out you were right. Cutting some words out of the poem improved it (although, for the time being, I am leaving the opening words intact).

Once again, if my response to your critique was overly defensive, or if I misunderstood what you said, I apologize.

[FranktheFrank]

I tend to agree with Bob, it is unnecessary wordy, something Bob points out in my work pretty regularly.
I've known Bob for a number of years and he is the least offensive poet on here.
As a draft it's okay, but you could cut. How you cut is up to you.

I don't think the guy in the poem was being offensive, he was full of himself after gaining new knowledge
and wanted to share his knowledge. If everyone is asymmetrical then there can't be offence in that fact.
You could say he was tactless.

This is a friendly forum on the whole. Bernie used to lay into me with far worse.

Put a thick skin on and enjoy the ride. It is a serious critique forum not a place to ooh aah over poems that are weak.

[CalebMurdock]

Frank, I misunderstood some of the things Bob was saying, and partially because of that I reacted defensively to what he said. But he was right that I needed to cut the poem a little. I've now apologized. I hope he'll accept my apology and move on. My reaction may be partly due to the fact that everyone on the other forum liked the poem.

Now, on to what you've said. I appreciate your comments, but I don't agree that the speaker in the poem is full of himself. If a new person that you've just met suddenly criticizes you in a personal way, that would (and should) be taken as offensive. In my view, the speaker in the poem has the right attitude.

Thanks for the feedback.

[FranktheFrank]

Caleb, we don't need all this apologising or arguing over comments.

We're not here to agree or debate.

You've set the poem on the board.

We thrash it and trash it or give accolades

You say thanks.

End of story.

I've been told I'm a cunt. That's critiquing at its worse. No point worrying about it.

ieuan

[BobBradshaw]

No apologies needed, now or in the future.

A poetry workshop is meant to be 1) fun and supportive and 2) a place to improve one’s work through constructive criticism.

Here we don’t defend our poems. Why? Defending
one’s work discourages future constructive criticism. Receiving constructive criticism is why we’re here. It’s how we improve our skills.

As Ieuan said, we’re not here to agree or debate. We’re here to support each other through encouragement, praise when appropriate and constructive criticism. No criticism of a poem is meant to be taken personally. Criticism is only meant to be helpful.

I’m sorry for the rough start. Let’s put this little speed bump behind us, and enjoy the ride together.

Note: I’m also at fault here for commenting on my poem Choux a la Crème. I usually never defend myself. So I set a bad example.

[CalebMurdock]

I don't agree with you entirely, Bob. I agree that people should try to be constructive -- and I try very hard to be -- but if a poet disagrees with a crit, I see no problem in saying so. In my opinion, you said nothing wrong in your Chou thread. In my view, the right attitude is to be constructive overall, but to disagree when you disagree. Adults can do that.

To be honest, I thought you overreacted to my comment. It's true that I was being a bit defensive, partly (as I've already said) because I misunderstood some of the things you said (I thought you wanted to remove the 1980s date and remove those two lines entirely -- I should have read what you said more carefully!), but ultimately I thanked you for your comments. As it turns out, I think you were right that the poem could be condensed a little.

So yes, I'll react to things that are said from time to time, but I won't lose sight of the fact that people are trying to be helpful and should be thanked. That, in my mind, is the most important thing. In other words, I'm not a person to be nice-nice. I'm a person who is honest but civil. I am sometimes defensive, but I apologize when I am wrong. Can you live with that?

[BobBradshaw]

People in workshops are very sensitive to hurting others’ feelings. That’s why defending one’s work discourages constructive criticism. The criticism here tends to be very mild anyway. It’s never personal, and so I take what I find is helpful, and apply it, and shrug off what I don’t agree with.

I rarely respond to defensive comments. Just so you know.

However, it’s clear that you write well and I assure you, I look forward to reading your poems, and to getting to know you better.

[CalebMurdock]

Thank you, Bob. That's a mature response.

I like to joke that I was born with my Repulser Beam turned on, and nothing I've been able to do has made me a likable person. The result is that I try very, very hard to be nice and honest and transparent, and still people don't like me. I'll try all the harder here.

I have to tell you that at the other forum, there are at least three poets there who have written poems that rise to the level of greatness (I don't count myself among that group). If that forum closes, some of them may end up here.

Back to my poem, I'm finding that I like both versions that I've posted above (although I agree that "early" has to go, along with a couple "that's"), so I still have work to do on it. Thanks for your input, which was definitely useful (though it pained me a little to hear it).

[BobBradshaw]

That would be great….they would be welcomed